Reincarnation is deception!

If we start to examine basic views of the New Age movement and the Oriental religions, it is good to start from reincarnation. This doctrine is namely in the background almost in all teaching of the New age movement and it is also the basic belief of the Oriental religions, in other words of Hinduism and Buddhism. About its commonness has been estimated, that about 25 % of people in the western countries believes in it, but in India and other countries of Asia, where is the origin of this doctrine, the percentage is naturally much bigger. There, in other words mainly in India and other countries of Asia has been taught this doctrine already at least for 2000 years, and obviously it was accepted generally about 300 before Christ, not just before it.

When it is a question of reincarnation, it in any case is based on the fact, that our life is believed to be continuous circulation. Its is believed to be continuous circulation, so that each person is born on the earth again and again and again, and gets a new incarnation always according to that, how he has lived in his former life. All that bad, what happens to us today, should only be consequence of the earlier happenings, and that we must now reap it, what we have sown earlier. Only if we experience enlightenment and at the same time are freed from the circulation, in other words we will achieve moksha, so this circulation does not continue eternally. (However in the western view achieving of moksha is not very important. Instead of that, in the western world reincarnation is seen in positive light, in other words mainly as a possibility to develop and to grow spiritually. It hasn’t similar negative nuance to generally in east.)

But what can we think about reincarnation; is it really true or not, and is it worth while to believe? We try to search for answer to this matter in this writing.

as long as it allows to leave a full life and have a good impact on society in general it is a good beliefe.

One of matter, which proves impossibility of reincarnation is, that when person born again as better person, so why wickedness increase in the world and not reduce?

Where did you get this?
If someone during his life was evil and such then he will be born as something else not as a better man.

Examine doctrine of reincarnation … its teach this …

Which doctrine of reincarnation are you refering to exactly? Hindu? Buddhist?

The growth of population. The second problem, which we have to face in reincarnation, is the growth of population. For if reincarnation is true and someone would always achieve moksha, in other words withdrawing from the circulation, so the number of people on the globe should at the same time decrease - or at least it could not increase. In other words there should now be much less people on the earth than sometime earlier in the past.

However, why this matter is just now on the contrary? For when the amount of population should all the time decrease because of withdraws from the circulation, so it is indeed all the time increasing, so that people are now about 10 times more than 500 years ago and about 30 times more than 2000 years ago. On the globe there are actually right now more people than ever and their amount has all the time increased during the centuries (As a matter of fact we don’t need to go than behind of some millenniums - by using as a basis the current growth of population - so we achieve the zero, when there couldn’t even be people. Compare Genesis 1:28: "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill earth…”). The growth of population is indeed a real problem from the point of view of reincarnation - especially if some souls are freed at the same time from the circulation. This matter doesn’t so prove on behalf of reincarnation, but speaks against it.

Oriental and Western reincarnation. One feature, which is peculiar to Oriental view of reincarnation, is, that man can become an animal or even also a plant. For when in the Western countries man are assumed to remain all the time as man, the older and more original Asian view includes all the shapes of life; that’s why it is indeed called transmigration of souls. For example Olavi Vuori (p. 82, Hyvät henget ja pahat) has described Chinese popular religion on this area:

Chinese popular religion includes a view about reincarnation. After having gone through all tribunals, the soul reincarnates to the world. In which form he will reincarnate, depends on his previous life. He who has treated domestic animals badly, will be born as a domestic animal. For this reason the religious Chinese in any case don’t kill animal. Laotse already advised: “Be friendly to animal. It can be your ancestor.”

We may therefore ask, that why in the Western countries has not brought this side out? Very seldom or if ever we can read that someone has been in his previous life for example a fish or even a bacterium, and who would then recall his former life as a animal (Another question of course is, that if we have been bacteria or even trees during our previous lives, so what have we then learned. Certainly the bacteria and the trees have not any understanding.). Many have of course believed, that they have been earlier kings or other notable persons, but in reincarnation research we don’t usually hear that someone has been in his former life as a animal - these kinds of stories generally are missing completely.

We can justifiably so wonder, that why there is as large conflict as this between the Western and Oriental view. Isn’t it one proof of it, that people don’t have any concrete information from this area, but it is based more on their beliefs - beliefs, which are difficult to prove to be true.

The interval of reincarnations. If we still remain in different views of reincarnation, so one this kind of matter is the different interval of reincarnations, in other words the interval time, which has been spent in the other world. For the views are neither similar on this area, but they change very much according to the culture or being member in some society. For example the following fixed times have been got for the interval which has been spent in the other world:

  • In the community of Druus in Middle East is believed in direct reincarnation, in other words there is not at all interval.

  • In Rose Cross movement reincarnation is expected to happen every 144. year.

  • In anthroposophy is believed in reincarnation at intervals of 800 years.

  • Reincarnation researchers have assessed, that the interval generally is about 5-60 years.

So a good question is, that which of these view and beliefs is right, or is anything of them right? Don’t these contradictions prove, that these persons after all have not any concrete fact information about these matters, but it is a question of everyone’s own and false beliefs. Perhaps there has not at all ever been these intervals such as neither the former lives?

Another more serious problem being connected with just these intervals is indeed, that if we have been in the other world tens or hundreds of years and even several times, so why don’t we have any recollections from this interval? In other words why are we again so oblivious of these intervals in the spirit world such as we are oblivious of our former lives? Some have of course explained this problem, in other words our oblivious, that our memory has maybe been wiped away. But if our memory has been wiped away, so what then can be matters, which prove of reincarnation? In other words if we don’t remember anything of our former lives and intervals between them, the proofs for reincarnation remain very slight.

The connection beyond the border and reincarnation. It is ordinary, that many members of the New Age movement, who believe in reincarnation, believe also that they get messages from the spirits of the dead. For they really believe, that they can be in connection with the dead, even though they simultaneously regard reincarnation as true. Because of this connection they may have arranged special spiritualism sessions, in which they then believe to get messages from persons who have already moved beyond the border. For example one of the best known mediums, in other words deceased Leslie Flint, canalised for instance such persons as Marilyn Monroe, Valentino, Queen Victoria, Mahatma Gandhi, Shakespeare , Chopin and other famous and notable persons of Hollywood.

It, what many members of the New Age movement don’t however take into consideration, is, that how these two matters, in other words reincarnation and connection beyond the border with the dead, can be simultaneously valid. For if we try to put them together, from it will become only a mess. We can notice this matter from the next examples:

With whom can we be in contact? The first difficulty is there, that with whom persons can we really make contact? For if some person has behind him 10 different incarnations on the earth, and he has just for the last time moved beyond the border

Matthew called person, 1. Aaron

(Look at this next list, 2. Adam

which describes this matter. 3. Ian

There has been arranged 4. Walt

chronologically and by way of 5. Richard

example the different 6. Wayne

incarnations of the same 7. James

person – only his names 8. Edward

change during his 9. William

different lives. His last 10. Matthew

incarnation on the earth

was Matthew and the

first one was Aaron.) so with whom of these ten persons can we be in contact? For the problem namely is, that when these ten persons are as a matter of fact only one person, so can we then be in contact with all these ten persons or only with Matthew, who has lived last of all on the earth? Or does this same person present beyond the border always different roles, according to that as is needed, so that he is sometimes Matthew, sometimes Aaron, sometimes Richard or sometimes somebody else? It is however strange, that they, who believe to be in contact with persons beyond the border, don’t generally face these kinds of problems, but they always believe to be in contact just with those persons, with whom they want to be. However, in the light of this example it is quite questionable.

What if the person has reincarnated on the earth? If we continue about the previous example, so we can think, that the same person, who has behind him ten incarnations, reincarnates now again on the earth, as a new person; and his new name is now Gary. This is so the eleventh incarnation of the same person on the earth.

The problem in this kind of case is indeed there, that if now is tried to make contact with someone the previous ten persons (Aaron, William … Matthew. ) beyond the border, so how can it succeed, because the person, who has behind him these earlier incarnations, is indeed just now on the earth? For example the before mentioned Leslie Flint believed that he is in contact for instance with Marilyn Monroe and also other fame, but if these had already just now reincarnated on the earth, so how this connection has been able to come true? Shouldn’t it have been quite impossible in this light? (Or it would have been possible in that case, if Leslie Flint had met these persons on the earth in their new incarnations.) Therefore there are great problems, if we try to put these two matters together.

Can person be in contact with himself? One kind of situation is also such, in which Gary, in other words the eleventh incarnation, would try to make contact beyond the border, with someone of his previous incarnations. For it is really possible, that he would try to make contact with someone of his previous incarnations or even with all of them simultaneously. The question is indeed that how it could be possible, because this person himself is just now on the earth and not beyond the border. In this is therefore apparent problem of two places , in other words how the same person can be in two place simultaneously. We understand, that it wouldn’t certainly succeed.

Why people are still in the circulation? One thought in reincarnation is so, that we are in continuous circulation of development, and that the law of karma rewards and punishes us always according to that, how we have lived in our previous life. Civilisation and goodness should therefore increase continually in the world, when we simultaneously develop in the circulation.

But just in this is indeed one big problem from the point of view of reincarnation. For the world is not at all always going to better direction, but to worse (Or such as Paul said: "But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 2 Tim 3:1,2). Crime is not at all on the decrease, but it is on the increase. Formerly for example in the countryside it was not necessary to lock the doors or to use thief alarms for fear of the thieves, but nowadays also those are used. In the same way during the last century, there were two the most disastrous wars of the mankind’s history and which killed millions of people. If development on this area has taken place, it concerns only technology, not people.

On the other hand, if incarnations are behind us already thousands, so shouldn’t all wrong have already been finished during this time? For if bad karma with its illnesses, with its poverty or other sufferings is always consequence of wrong acts in the previous lives, so shouldn’t each of us have already learned from consequences of our bad acts during these thousands of incarnations? However, why we still are “in the circulation” and why in development has not been got closer to goodness, if each of us have behind already unread experiences to learn from consequences of our bad acts? In this there is an apparent conflict between these two matters, and it is indeed one of the most powerful things, which speaks against reincarnation.

Our life on the earth and beyond the border. Especially in the western reincarnation view includes so that thought, that we sometimes go beyond the border, spending interval time after our death. Generally also, when it is a question of this after-death life beyond the border, it is described in the Western countries as a place, which is filled by harmony, peace and love. For example in the well-known book "Kuolemaa ei ole” (Rauni Leena Luukanen) this view comes into view very clearly. The next citation is from the latter part of the book (p. 209 221), in which the writer’s supposed “grandmother” (we understand, that as a matter of fact there is a question of a deceiving spirit, who appears as a grandmother of the writer) transmits a message from beyond the border, through automatic writing. About that comes into view a view about the life beyond the border, which then is compared to the earth, where is loveless and cold environment:

… The love connects people together. Words, gestures and explanations are not needed. Physical love in here is not. All love is spiritual. People love each other in the same way, was then a question of men, women and children. Of the same kind is love also on the earth, it gets only various manifestation forms because of the chains of the body.

People on the earth live in loveless and cold environment. On the earth man however learns, and onto the earth man must return again and again to learn lesson of all kinds of love, to learn and to behave in accordance with his development, serving and loving his neighbours.

… On the earth can’t be imagined, of what kind is love and beauty in the another reality. When people come here they surprise colours and peace and beauty, which can’t describe with earthly words.

However, we can think, that if the life of people beyond the border is like that, what has been described (What about impenitent evildoers, who perhaps have tortured others, or for example Hitler, who was guilty of death of millions; do they at this moment experience the same?), so why the same atmosphere doesn’t prevail here on the earth? For if we all have earlier been beyond the border, in which everything has been in other way, so why don’t the same matters happen also here on the earth? For this matter should not be any problem, because it is a question of the same persons both there and here - only the residence has sometimes changed.

This is indeed again one problem being connected with reincarnation, in other words why the same people live in these two places in quite different way (in other words they live by turns very well and very badly, depending on their residence). It is just equally large problem as it too, that we don’t generally even remember anything of these intervals such as we don’t remember anything of the previous lives.

Why to born on earth, if we don’t have to? So especially in the western countries appearances much such teaching, that firstly the life after death is pleasure, peace and freedom from all the chains of material (to this we referred already in the previous paragraph), and secondly, that we can always ourselves decide and choose, when we will reincarnate on the earth, especially “because of our mental growth.” For example in the book “Mitä on New Age?” (Kati Ojala, p. 22) this latter view becomes into view – in other words that we can ourselves choose even our conditions, when we reincarnate again on earthly live.

… Also because of them we will leave astral after certain time and we will return to the lower vibration level, to physical material and into a new incarnation. However, before that we will choose circumstances of our coming life, just as its period.

… We choose our parents, friends, neighbours…

However, as a result of the previous, we can think, that if life after death is pleasure and peace, so why nobody of us anymore would want to reincarnate on the earth? For if we especially know, that suffering is waiting us because of the bad karma (for example Hitler or many evildoers), so it is probable, that nobody of us doesn’t want anymore to reincarnate on the earth. We would then rather stay to spend “nice days” beyond the border, - when we know our selfishness - and we wouldn’t come here. The earth would then certainly remain very uninhabited instead of the current great multitude.

Questionable is also, that we reincarnate here because of our mental growth. This matter is questionable for that reason, that perhaps 90 % of people don’t perhaps ever think about the matter in question. If it were the most important reason for our reincarnation, so certainly it would be in the mind of each person already immediately from the very beginning, but like this the matter is not.

One problem, which appears expressly in this western view of reincarnation, is also, that it doesn’t agree together with the original Asian view. For when in the east is as a target expressly to get ride of the circulation, in other words of reincarnation, so why they would want anymore to reincarnate on the earth, if they had already achieved their target? In other words they would have achieved their target simply by way of that, that they could himself decide to be no more to be born on the earth. There, in other words in east, is not however believed in this kind of possibility, and this view is again one of those contradictions, which appears around the doctrine of reincarnation.

How the law of karma functions? When is searched for enigmas of the doctrine of reincarnation, one of them is the law of karma. According to ordinary view it should function thus, that it always rewards or punishes man according to that, how he has lived in his former life. If man has done bad acts or thought bad thoughts, consequence of it is negative; on the other hand good thoughts will cause a positive consequence.

However, an enigma is, how any impersonal law can function in concerned way. For indeed any impersonal power or law can not think, separate quality of acts or even remember anything, what man has done - such as an earthly Statute-Book can’t function in concerned way, but always is needed the executor of law, in other words personal being; mere law can not do that.

The impersonal law can neither certainly make any plans for the future in our life or to ordain, in which conditions we will be born and live. These activities requires always person, what the law of karma is not. How the mere law can function in the before mentioned way?

The second problem is also, that if the law of karma rewards and punishes us always according to that, how we have lived in our previous lives, so why we can’t remember anything of the past - we noted this matter already before? For if we are punished because of our former life, we must also know, why we are punished. What ground is with any law, if the grounds of punishment are not even properly clear to us? This is one of those enigmas and question-marks, which are around the doctrine of reincarnation and which are connected with it.

How in the beginning? In the previous paragraphs we have spoken about the bad karma, which can be born only in this life on the earth. We have spoken about that, how we are believed to reincarnate again and again and again here and that we will get a new incarnation always according to that, how we have lived before. Generally is thought, at least in the east, that the karma of the previous lives sets our destiny and our part in this life. Because of their bad karma, which is consequence of the previous lives, people try to get ride of it, especially in the east. They have as a target to be freed from the circulation of reincarnation, so that their wouldn’t need anymore to reincarnate on the earth. For example Buddha taught, that the 8-part road is one of those ways, by which to this purpose is aspired.

But one good point is, what was in the beginning? In other words how was in the beginning, when nobody yet has not lived on the earth and there has not been bad karma because of the previous lives? Because somewhere must be the beginning, when there was nothing and when nobody have been on the surface of this earth.

A good question is indeed, when was the starting point, because for example the verified history of the mankind doesn’t go back as about to 5000 years, when simultaneously came out farming, ability to write, ceramics acts, buildings and towns (like this really is!), and neither globe, life on its surface and the sun can be everlasting - otherwise energy of the sun reserves and by that the life on the earth would have finished already a long time ago.

So one enigma is indeed, that how the bad karma has generally been able to be born? In other words how has it been able to come on the earth, because we wouldn’t have had the preceding lives, in which we would have get it? Generally we are indeed given to understand, that we must during this life reap it, what we have sown in our previous lives, but if in the beginning there were not the preceding lives, so how this doctrine about the law of karma can be true? Actually this would mean, that if we in the beginning had not bad karma from the previous lives, so we would have then been already perfect, and then there wouldn’t have been any need for the circulation of reincarnation. How does so the circulation - if it is true - have generally been able to be born, because only the bad karma from the former bad lives brings about it and keeps it going? What has been its initiator?

The previous matter is explained also by the next description. It concerns that point, how the circulation can perhaps start quite like from the middle, but is not paid any attention to the problem of the beginning. The writer in this description discusses with Buddhist monks:

I sat in the Buddhist temple of Pu-ör-an with the group of monks. The conversation turned to the question: where the spirit of man comes from? - One of the monks gave to me a long and detailed explanation about the large circulation of life, which continuously flows through thousands and millions of years, appearing in new and new forms and developing either higher or coming lower down depending on the quality of individual acts. When this answer didn’t satisfy me, concerning the question of the origin of the soul, one of the monks answered: “The soul has come from Buddha from the western heaven.” When I then asked: “From where Buddha has come and how the soul of man comes from him?” Again followed a long lecture on gone and coming Buddhas, which follow each other after a long period, as an endless circulation. When neither this answer satisfied me, I told them: “You start from the middle, but not from the beginning. You have a ready Buddha, who is born to this world and then you have another one ready Buddha. You have a ready person, who goes his circulation to endless times. I wanted to get a clear and short answer to my question: from where has come the first man and the first Buddha? From where that large circulation of the development has started?"

… Nobody of the monks did answer, but all fell silent. After a while I pronounced: “I tell that you, even though you don’t belong to the same religion as I. The beginning of life is God. He is not such as your Buddhas, who as endless series follow each other in the large circulation of development, but He is eternally the same and unchangeable. He is the beginning of all entity, and from Him is the beginning of man’s spirit.” - I don’t know, did my answer satisfy them. However, I got a possibility to speak them about the large source of life, about living God, whose existence alone is able to resolve a question of the source of life and the origin of the universe. (2)

It’s quite difficult to talk about facts and proofs when talking about
religion. In the end it’s more a matter of belief than of proof.
Personally I don’t think there is proof of God existence as well as
there is no proof of God nonexistence.

Nevertheless there are some weak points in your arguments regarding the reincarnation.

  1. Population growth goes really well with reincarnation idea since many
    souls could make the transition from plants and animals to human souls. You
    have to admit that there are a lot of animals that are almost extinct.
    Then in Indian perception as I know there are many different universes
    where the soul can reincarnate i.e. it’s not limited to earth alone.

  2. Western reincarnation… It’s something new for me. Is it a western religion
    sustaining this idea or just a bunch of westerners that borrowed the idea from
    eastern religions. I wouldn’t judge the eastern philosophy that is
    there for thousands of years because some westerners didn’t fully
    understand it.

  3. Reincarnation and time… Time is something really relative.
    Einstein proved it for our universe. And how can we know that in that
    place where souls stay before reincarnation time even exists.
    Again why should souls reincarnate after exactly the same period of
    time. It’s like going to supermarket, why should everyone go shopping
    after exactly the same period of time after they left the shop? :slight_smile:

Yes I agree, that is a good question. But I can ask the same question
about Christian religion and Islam. Where is proof of gods existence?
There is no proof… It’s a matter of belief and that’s all.

To understand the idea of reincarnation you should play an on-line
massive multi-player game. =) It’s really addictive and you know it is bad for you
but you just can’t stop playing it. =) You come back again and again.

  1. You are asking how karma works by itself? I will ask you how gravity works by itself?

From my point of view believing in god is also deception; because there are no proofs that god exists.

I understand your point. Religion and hope have many common things. One wise man once said “Hope is the strongest poison.”
Also an old Moldavian proverb comes to my mind (I don’t know and English equivalent so I’ll just translate it word-by-word): “The smart one promises and the silly one hopes.” I think this proverb applies perfectly to priests and ordinary followers of most religions.

I have to mention that our civilization doesn’t have proofs maybe because it is not ready yet. I don’t want to say that we shall DESERVE the right to get the proofs about the existence of the God, provided by Him (if he does exist, of course :laughing: ) to us. Remember, it took some time to discover the electron and stuff like that. Maybe it’s the same thing with God.

It is Judgement Day. The old age passes, the new age begins. Bush Baby to Bush Baby, and Lamb to Peace. Perhaps reincarnation is for carnivores, not vegans. George Bush might could use a life as a tree hugger, or two. In Saggitarius you had to be an archer. In Capricorn you have to be a goat with a bow. A RAIN bow?. Aquarius now is a disraeli gear on the larger earth tilt cycle. We are in Capricorn. Disraeli Aquarius.
Yes, perhaps reincarnation is hell, for a cycle, an age, an eternity. Praise God for heaven on earth.
Death and hell no more!