slola, I find it odd that you call my rather specific definition vague. My definition has several easily defined criteria which clearly divide vegans and non vegans. Words like “try their best” are ambiguous and lead to vague definitions. My definition is clear but the term itself in its most used context is misleading. Note that the definition is clear but the use of the word is misleading.
Also please, lets not pretend that I’m receiving any level of respect here, why, the poster just before said “your dullard/bigotted speciesist drivel is of no concern to me, your trashy gradeschool hypothoses and childish, mindless sloganeering is of little consequence. grow a pair today”, I mean, that’s just one big running sentence of disrespect. If you find me calling this guy up on the fact that he has hardly presented one coherent argument and resorts to name calling on a postly basis disrespectful then I am sorry for that. But please, let’s not pretend that I’m the one being overtly disrespectful here.
I 100% agree with you, that the poster who said those things to you was being more disrespectful to you, than you were to him. But lets be honest, you registered to this forum for Vegan people so that you could argue with them about their opinions and beliefs. When you do that, you can’t expect people to be nice to you or respect what you have to say because you’re just asking for it.
Dragonfly, as much as he’s pissing us all off, it would be extremely hypocritical of me to say that we are all equal and should have equal rights and treat everything with respect, and not treat Adam with respect. It would be hypocritical of me to demand that he respects me, if I do not respect him. I may not agree with his opinion, or the way that he is going about expressing it, but that doesn’t make him any lesser than me, so I’m not going to be rude to him and then just hope that he’ll be polite and go away, which we all know he isnt going to.
ReveElectrique, that’s one of the most inspiring things I’ve read in a long time. Pity you let AdamD wind you up as well… The kinder you are in your life to others and the world around you the happier you are - it’s one of the few things about life that is irrefutable to me (though I accept it may not be to others). We’re all selfish but vegans (or whatever you want to call them) are just a bit smarter, or luckier maybe to know that altruism brings happiness.
I agree - kindness and gentleness are two crucial characteristics of very powerful personalities.
However we might think that people will listen to those who are shouting out louder and with criticism to everyone and everything, in reality - intelligent people will follow those who have values and principles but still are kind, generous and optimistic about life.
Being nice is good and all but it doesn’t change the fact that most people who call themselves vegans actually aren’t.
As for intelligent/powerful people being nice, you seem to be very misguided. As for powerful people, I bet the CEO s of the modern super corporations didn’t get there by being nice. As for intelligence, red meat was actually what provided the protein rich diet that allowed mankind to become smarter and stronger and eventually ascend to the top of the food chain so if anything veganism encourages a lack of intelligence.
@Dragonfly while you may not agree with Adam, your posts are actually rather a waste of time reading. You name call in a, frankly, pathetic attempt at showing off your cough broad vocabulary. You present, quite literally, no logical argument to your case or even against Adam’s and you are extremely disrespectful. I’m new here, and thoroughly interested in vegetarianism and, to a far lesser extent veganism, but if you’re representative of this group I’m not interested. Maybe if you actually tried to argue your point rationally, without resorting to pathetic name-calling, using sources to back up your points and actually writing an argument rather than just linking random, rather horrific, videos, rather than just calling Adam names over and over again I, and others, might be prepared to listen to you a little more.
Slola, I liked your post a lot. I agreed on a number of points, and it had a very nice tone to it, rather in contrast to Dragonfly; however I will call you out on this one point: that is, quite simply, not the definition of a vegan. I try my best to reduce the amount of suffering onto other beings, does that make me a vegan? No, of course not. I realise that you agreed with him on this but I felt that I should call you on it so as to correct anyone else who may read and/or post in this thread,
In a way though, I suppose it can be possible. The definitions technically only cover diet (Dictionary.c0m, Wikipedia and Cambridge Dictionary all only mention diet), so using products such as hair conditioner, if not consumed in the diet, actually don’t make you any less of a vegan. That’s my take on it. I don’t see why you would be a vegan, but that’s another topic for another time.
Essentially all the protein/protein building blocks come from plants. Carnivores just wait for all those herbivores to take it all in, build it up and then eat them.
I love your science which stipulates that if you eat meat you will become intelligent. This theory that meat consumption or any type of food consumption (almost by default it seems) changes the genetics of generations is quite a theory indeed. There is a lot of science that is being discovered that indicates that some genetic change can occur in a lifetime due to lifestyle/viruses but not anything as plainly concrete as what you are suggesting.
An experiment in which meat is fed to herbivores with a probable outcome of subsequently more intelligent generations is not likely to be real science any time soon.
Hmmm, Adam, I said ‘happy’ people, not ‘powerful’ and I think you’re probably misinterpretting Dacite’s meaning when he (she? says ‘powerful personality’. As for intelligence, personally I can say I’ve felt a whole lot more clear headed since cutting out meat (in fact so does everyone I’ve ever met who’s done it). But that’s not necessarily evidence against what you say about a protein rich diet because the meat we have access to these days is pretty much unrecognisable from what our hunter gatherer ancestors ate. It used to be lean and fit and healthy. Now it’s pumped full of antibiotics, fat, and grown quickly in dreadful conditions. So it wouldn’t be so surprising if it made you fuzzy headed…
First off the bat I’d just like to than Matt for encouraging actual argument rather than name-calling.
Yeah rob I was referring to Dacite I think who mentioned powerful personalities, because power and happiness are two very different things.
As for you feeling better, I know you aren’t really using this as evidence per say but it is still very anecdotal and doesn’t really count for much. Any number of things could be influencing how you feel and it’s just impossible to say which is making you feel more clear headed.
You’re absolutely right about our diet being different in many ways from our hunter-gatherer ancestors but that’s because we are very different and the reasons we eat are very different. Eating has undeniably (At least in the west) moved beyond a matter of survival and on to a matter of pleasure so all of these fatty/greasy/modern foods are to an extent justified if only because they taste good to the majority of people. As for being “fuzzy headed” I think I know what you’re getting at but intelligence goes far beyond having clear thoughts, the simple fact that humanity has prospered so much on an omnivorous diet is evidence to prove that the diet we have chosen is excellent for us.
VBryan, bio accumulation has long been an effective way to get large amounts of useful nutrients with less effort. I can for example hunt and eat a deer by chasing it for 2 hours and eat the results of its’ 3 days of grazing. It’s just more efficient.
As for the science that you seem to attribute to me, it’s been explained as not so much a genetic change (at least not over short amounts of time) but rather a functional change. People who are well fed and not malnourished due to their choice to eat meat (I am of course referring to history not right now) were able to be more active and efficient in their lives and over lifetimes this efficiency adds up into practical advantages that no society on Earth to date has been willing to sacrifice in favor of animal welfare. As for feeding a herbivore meat, as I explained this is a long term process that occurs over a life time or multiple lifetimes.
And please don’t call it ‘my’ science, I don’t own it. I’m not even particularly well versed in it.
I can honestly say I don’t care one bit if people calling themselves vegans aren’t “true” vegans. The fact that they are even trying means they are doing 110% more than most people and for that I respect them. I and I’m pretty sure a lot of other “vegans” use the word to loosely define their diet meaning they avoid animal products. If you want to get technical I’m not going to kick and scream if anyone declares me “non-vegan”. I follow my own personal set of guidelines that I’m sure a lot of “vegans” wouldn’t be happy with anyway. For instance, I eat eggs from my local farmers market because I’ve seen how the chickens are raised and I feel comfortable eating the eggs. Also, I am NOT anti-hunting/fishing as I believe it is a far more natural and ethical (if done right) way of acquiring food than factory farming and keeps people in touch with their place in a natural food web.
So if anyone “vegan” or not wants to criticize me for my choices by calling me a “non-vegan” I really wouldn’t be offended. I am following my ethics, my beliefs, and my personal diet that works for me. I hope I’m not wrong when I say others follow a similar path.
*side note: if anything, I see the word “vegan” as an easier way of explaining yourself to people who don’t know you well enough to know your specific eating/buying habits. When someone tries to pass you the deviled eggs and then asks why you don’t want any, it’s a lot easier to say “sorry I’m vegan” than saying “oh sorry I don’t eat meat, milk, cheese or eggs produced in a cruel or inhumane way but thanks!” The word is meant to describe a lifestyle, not define you as a person.
only a certifiable idiot would coddle this childish, dull-minded, selfish troll. there is no reason to treat adam with respect, he has the mind, morals and critical thinking skills of a confused little child. youtube.com/watch?v=AWx6ukNnq7Q